David, love to see more wine folks talking about this important topic. As a former wine bar owner and award winning sommelier I’ve spent the last three years studying, tasting and pairing de-alc wine as it has resonated with me in a way to a more lasting future for our industry. I wrote a piece at the end of October about some of the topics you mention - I’d love to share it in thread, with permission to continue the conversation.
Also - highly recommend Leitz as a producer. As Josi has been one of the best German and Riesling producers of a generation, his line of Eins Zwei Zero were early to this movement. His whites and sparkling wines are on level with some of his best alc wines
Fantastic, thanks Liz, and completely agree. Just checked out your article, and just this week, on Tuesday, I posted an article on "How to Get More People Into Wine?" and argued that wine is in the enviable position to make its own non-alc and low-alc product. It uses the same vineyards, grapes, wineries, unlike non-alc "liquors" which are completely different alternate products, non-alc wine is still wine! And yet so far, most non-acl producers are new brands, new companies where the traiditional wine world isn't even benfitting from these sales. It's just dumb blind stubborness on their part, imo.
I actually have a massive 18-bottle tasting of non-alc wine coming up in Feb. Sticking to Premium and Ultra-Premium brands to really put to the test how far we've come (and how far we still have to go.) I'll take a look into Eins Zwei Zero - that one missed me, somehow!
Thanks for the thoughtful reply - it’s inspiring to see more folks thinking and writing outside the box. Looking forward to continuing the conversation.
This is very thorough - thank you! I need to cover zero-alcohol wines for my January wine column (not on Substack) so this was great research. I might link to your article for people who are interested in more than just my recommendations, if that's ok!
Please do! We just went to our first non-alcoholic tasting event a couple days ago, and I was able to snag a bottle of the Studio Null and Oddbird, and plan to place an order with Oceano in the New Year. So I may have tasting note updates in January, too!
thank you for this! I'm all for non-alcoholic alternatives. I like Surly rose & sparkling white and I think the sparkling Riesling called Eins Wet zero (sp?) that comes in a bottle and can is fantastic!
Sweet, I will look for those! I'm hoping to attend a NA wine tasting next week in Pasadena, where I'll be able to finally try some of these. The deeper I get into the wine world as a professional, the more I'm appreciating the option to pace myself with these low-to-no alcohol options.
Well said Dave! Innovation is here and full steam ahead. Have you tried BOLLE Sparkling yet? Tis among the best new offerings to wine drinkers. Keep up the good work. Cheers!
I haven't! Though Bolle's Chief Brand Officer, Nicholas, just connected with me over on LinkedIn yesterday, and I took note of his company's name. I will definitely check them out! Cheers, Tim.
I am pretty sure a few “na” wine brands actually don’t go through fermentation- like Opia. They just basically are juice made from wine grapes in a very basic explanation. At least thats what the wine reps tell me??? I like the write up of course. I still would rather drink juice or a mock-tail. I will never understand paying so much money for lackluster flavor- but again, just my very personal opinion. I love when you pick controversial topics!
Specifically, juice (or any liquid) that never went through fermentation has to be called a “Non-Alcoholic Wine Alternative”. It’s only “Non-Alcoholic Wine” (aka actually wine and not an “alternative”) when said fermentation took place!
Non-alcoholic is especially odd because in America it’s all regulated by the FDA instead of the TTB (like all alcoholic products.) So it’s like a whole new language to learn, even though don’t get me started on how alcoholic products should fall under the FDA as well, smdh.
Very good write up! Enjoyed it a lot. There is however one overarching problem that I have yet to hear a good answer to when it comes to non-alcoholic wine, and that is how you maintain body in the wine. You can no doubt get flavour and terroir expression, but the 13 or so percent of alcohol in a normal wine contributes a huge amount of mouthfeel, without which it would come across as thin and lacking. I say this as someone who enjoys a fair amount of non-alcoholic beer, which suffers from the same issue, but to a less noticeable extent. You’re either left with a different expression altogether that feels far removed from any regular wine, or you try to emulate the effects of alcohol on body through additives. Neither is super appealing in my book. It’s not enough to be nonalcoholic for its own sake, it still needs to be good, and (and I’m happy to be proven wrong) I doubt we are there yet. Kombucha is great though, so maybe that’s one avenue to explore?
Thanks, George! And I don't think you try to replicate it - as mentioned in the article, we don't compare the body of an 11% ABV dry white with no tannic structure to the body of a 16% ABV heavily macerated red, at least we don't do so in terms of one is good and one is bad. So it's equally as apples and oranges to compare full alcohol wine body with no alcohol wine body.
Reds will still have tannic structure (and maybe this will be important for whites as well? Maybe they need to be oranges?), though without the softness of the alchol you have to keep the tannins smoother/silkier. The mouthfeel needs for a non-alcoholic wine, to make it pleasant, are simply different. But making it pleasant is what's important, as a holistic experience *in its own right*, not trying to have it mimic a different style. This is where simple exposure and familiarity come in. We always fight the new because its different. And we're always dumb to do it for that reason.
That said, we're likely to find new techniques and technology as we go forward. Spinning cone tech is quite new, and finally allowed up to keep aromatics and delicate flavors while removing the alcohol - prior to this, that wasn't possible. We improve on these things BECAUSE we're working hard to make them and support the process.
I don't think it's fair to call a non-alcoholic wine "non-alcoholic for its own sake" anymore than it's fair to call Natural wines that, or purposefully oxidized wines that, or any style of wine that. We do it because it's going to expand what wine can be, and how we can appreciate it. Kombucha isn't wine, it's a "Non-Alcoholic Wine Alternative". But this, this is wine, and it's awesome how much potential is on the table.
Most innovation is for innovation's sake, to see what can be done, and that's not a bad thing. No one gets credit for innovating only when absolutely necessary, much as the wine world tends to operate on that wavelength.
That’s fair and I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I’m still curious as to how it will work in practice. I think the likely answer, which was also alluded to in your article through some of the examples, are low, rather than no, alcohol wines. If you can manipulate a wine to be a dry 5%, that might well solve the body problem and still be marketable as a low alcohol alternative.
I’m all for innovation and technological advancement, and if the resulting non alcoholic wine is genuinely tasty and reflects terroir well, I have no problem with it. The main point remains however. The resulting drink needs to be good, regardless of whether it is different. Orange wine is certainly different than a classic Chablis, but it only really has merit because genuinely tasty examples exist. We don’t make wines from Vitis Rupestris for the same reason, even if it can produce equivalent alcohol to vinifera.
It’s funny though, because I really want it to be great! It’s just that so far, it’s so incredibly far removed from “traditional” wine that it’s really not worth consuming (at least the examples I’ve tried. I’m curious about some of the ones you mention)
To be fair, though, neither of us have tried the really (supposedly) premium stuff in terms of NA wine. The big brands are plainly low quality, and it was all first to market. I plan to try all of these in the New Year, but for now am just reporting on what others are saying about them. As for Vitis Rupestris, see, this is where I also argue it’s only because we never committed to figuring it out, and what little we’ve tried was making wine like we would with Vitis Vinifera and expecting it to taste the same. Different attributes = the need for different approaches, and different final combination of flavors and textures. We could make great wine out of anything if/when we commit to figuring it out. Hybrids (imo) have already arrived there. And wineries like TerraVox are figuring out full-on native American grapes as we type.
Hehe yeah think you’re right, and I’m not gonna say that someone should not even try. By all means make it work. We need more good stuff in the world and the world only moves forward if we dare try something that might not work. Looking forward to seeing what the future holds in this space!
David, love to see more wine folks talking about this important topic. As a former wine bar owner and award winning sommelier I’ve spent the last three years studying, tasting and pairing de-alc wine as it has resonated with me in a way to a more lasting future for our industry. I wrote a piece at the end of October about some of the topics you mention - I’d love to share it in thread, with permission to continue the conversation.
Also - highly recommend Leitz as a producer. As Josi has been one of the best German and Riesling producers of a generation, his line of Eins Zwei Zero were early to this movement. His whites and sparkling wines are on level with some of his best alc wines
Fantastic, thanks Liz, and completely agree. Just checked out your article, and just this week, on Tuesday, I posted an article on "How to Get More People Into Wine?" and argued that wine is in the enviable position to make its own non-alc and low-alc product. It uses the same vineyards, grapes, wineries, unlike non-alc "liquors" which are completely different alternate products, non-alc wine is still wine! And yet so far, most non-acl producers are new brands, new companies where the traiditional wine world isn't even benfitting from these sales. It's just dumb blind stubborness on their part, imo.
I actually have a massive 18-bottle tasting of non-alc wine coming up in Feb. Sticking to Premium and Ultra-Premium brands to really put to the test how far we've come (and how far we still have to go.) I'll take a look into Eins Zwei Zero - that one missed me, somehow!
Thanks for the thoughtful reply - it’s inspiring to see more folks thinking and writing outside the box. Looking forward to continuing the conversation.
This is very thorough - thank you! I need to cover zero-alcohol wines for my January wine column (not on Substack) so this was great research. I might link to your article for people who are interested in more than just my recommendations, if that's ok!
Please do! We just went to our first non-alcoholic tasting event a couple days ago, and I was able to snag a bottle of the Studio Null and Oddbird, and plan to place an order with Oceano in the New Year. So I may have tasting note updates in January, too!
Looking forward to them! Although annoyingly I've got to write my piece before Xmas as it'll be published 1 January...
Ah, well, I guess mine will be in addition to yours then - looking forward to reading it when it drops!
thank you for this! I'm all for non-alcoholic alternatives. I like Surly rose & sparkling white and I think the sparkling Riesling called Eins Wet zero (sp?) that comes in a bottle and can is fantastic!
Sweet, I will look for those! I'm hoping to attend a NA wine tasting next week in Pasadena, where I'll be able to finally try some of these. The deeper I get into the wine world as a professional, the more I'm appreciating the option to pace myself with these low-to-no alcohol options.
Well said Dave! Innovation is here and full steam ahead. Have you tried BOLLE Sparkling yet? Tis among the best new offerings to wine drinkers. Keep up the good work. Cheers!
I haven't! Though Bolle's Chief Brand Officer, Nicholas, just connected with me over on LinkedIn yesterday, and I took note of his company's name. I will definitely check them out! Cheers, Tim.
I am pretty sure a few “na” wine brands actually don’t go through fermentation- like Opia. They just basically are juice made from wine grapes in a very basic explanation. At least thats what the wine reps tell me??? I like the write up of course. I still would rather drink juice or a mock-tail. I will never understand paying so much money for lackluster flavor- but again, just my very personal opinion. I love when you pick controversial topics!
Specifically, juice (or any liquid) that never went through fermentation has to be called a “Non-Alcoholic Wine Alternative”. It’s only “Non-Alcoholic Wine” (aka actually wine and not an “alternative”) when said fermentation took place!
Gotcha. I need to talk to some of the reps and let them know the correct lingo! Hehe
Tell them to check their own labels! I think this is regulated, but possibly i’m wrong about that and it’s still somewhat of the wild west out there.
I will. I have honestly ignored this category and have yet to have someone ask for NA so I also admit my ignorance.
Non-alcoholic is especially odd because in America it’s all regulated by the FDA instead of the TTB (like all alcoholic products.) So it’s like a whole new language to learn, even though don’t get me started on how alcoholic products should fall under the FDA as well, smdh.
Interesting!
Very good write up! Enjoyed it a lot. There is however one overarching problem that I have yet to hear a good answer to when it comes to non-alcoholic wine, and that is how you maintain body in the wine. You can no doubt get flavour and terroir expression, but the 13 or so percent of alcohol in a normal wine contributes a huge amount of mouthfeel, without which it would come across as thin and lacking. I say this as someone who enjoys a fair amount of non-alcoholic beer, which suffers from the same issue, but to a less noticeable extent. You’re either left with a different expression altogether that feels far removed from any regular wine, or you try to emulate the effects of alcohol on body through additives. Neither is super appealing in my book. It’s not enough to be nonalcoholic for its own sake, it still needs to be good, and (and I’m happy to be proven wrong) I doubt we are there yet. Kombucha is great though, so maybe that’s one avenue to explore?
Thanks, George! And I don't think you try to replicate it - as mentioned in the article, we don't compare the body of an 11% ABV dry white with no tannic structure to the body of a 16% ABV heavily macerated red, at least we don't do so in terms of one is good and one is bad. So it's equally as apples and oranges to compare full alcohol wine body with no alcohol wine body.
Reds will still have tannic structure (and maybe this will be important for whites as well? Maybe they need to be oranges?), though without the softness of the alchol you have to keep the tannins smoother/silkier. The mouthfeel needs for a non-alcoholic wine, to make it pleasant, are simply different. But making it pleasant is what's important, as a holistic experience *in its own right*, not trying to have it mimic a different style. This is where simple exposure and familiarity come in. We always fight the new because its different. And we're always dumb to do it for that reason.
That said, we're likely to find new techniques and technology as we go forward. Spinning cone tech is quite new, and finally allowed up to keep aromatics and delicate flavors while removing the alcohol - prior to this, that wasn't possible. We improve on these things BECAUSE we're working hard to make them and support the process.
I don't think it's fair to call a non-alcoholic wine "non-alcoholic for its own sake" anymore than it's fair to call Natural wines that, or purposefully oxidized wines that, or any style of wine that. We do it because it's going to expand what wine can be, and how we can appreciate it. Kombucha isn't wine, it's a "Non-Alcoholic Wine Alternative". But this, this is wine, and it's awesome how much potential is on the table.
Most innovation is for innovation's sake, to see what can be done, and that's not a bad thing. No one gets credit for innovating only when absolutely necessary, much as the wine world tends to operate on that wavelength.
That’s fair and I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I’m still curious as to how it will work in practice. I think the likely answer, which was also alluded to in your article through some of the examples, are low, rather than no, alcohol wines. If you can manipulate a wine to be a dry 5%, that might well solve the body problem and still be marketable as a low alcohol alternative.
I’m all for innovation and technological advancement, and if the resulting non alcoholic wine is genuinely tasty and reflects terroir well, I have no problem with it. The main point remains however. The resulting drink needs to be good, regardless of whether it is different. Orange wine is certainly different than a classic Chablis, but it only really has merit because genuinely tasty examples exist. We don’t make wines from Vitis Rupestris for the same reason, even if it can produce equivalent alcohol to vinifera.
It’s funny though, because I really want it to be great! It’s just that so far, it’s so incredibly far removed from “traditional” wine that it’s really not worth consuming (at least the examples I’ve tried. I’m curious about some of the ones you mention)
To be fair, though, neither of us have tried the really (supposedly) premium stuff in terms of NA wine. The big brands are plainly low quality, and it was all first to market. I plan to try all of these in the New Year, but for now am just reporting on what others are saying about them. As for Vitis Rupestris, see, this is where I also argue it’s only because we never committed to figuring it out, and what little we’ve tried was making wine like we would with Vitis Vinifera and expecting it to taste the same. Different attributes = the need for different approaches, and different final combination of flavors and textures. We could make great wine out of anything if/when we commit to figuring it out. Hybrids (imo) have already arrived there. And wineries like TerraVox are figuring out full-on native American grapes as we type.
Hehe yeah think you’re right, and I’m not gonna say that someone should not even try. By all means make it work. We need more good stuff in the world and the world only moves forward if we dare try something that might not work. Looking forward to seeing what the future holds in this space!