Thanks for doing this tasting. I've only had Zero alc beer and I don't have a problem with it.
1. Did all the wines have full ingredient labels except the Oceano? Because that seems like a marketing angle to me.
2. Besides the sparkling wines, were the still wines effervescent in any way which could have a positive effect on the palate? I saw the Oddbird listed CO2 on the label. However...
2A. Because there is a high residual sugar content, those wines could be subject to re-fermentation in the bottle (bubbles), so nearly guaranteed they are sterile filtering and maybe then plain flat out hitting it with Velcorin. Read up on Velcorin.
3. I'd like to know what the SO2 load was on these wines, harvest brix and the whole process when it had alcohol in it. What's the base product?
1) Oceano does have ingredients, it's at the veeeeery bottom of the left side of the pic. It states in full: "Dealcoholized Chardonnay Wine, Invert Cane Sugar, Potassium Corbonate, Yeast Protein, Contains Sulfites."
2) They were not. Not even trace amounts of noticeable fizz to spruce up the texture. Not that we often thought any was needed.
2A) Technically I don't think any of the sugar was *residual* sugar, it was always *added* sugar. (Does that make a difference?) So fermentation completed, then the de-alc process, then sugar added after the fact. Sterile filtering is indeed likely - given that these wines go through vacuum distillation, I doubt there's much hand-wringing over trying to make these wines seem minimal interventon. And interesting about Velcorin! Doesn't seem to be required to add that to nutrition labels, so likely, but impossible to know without questioning the winemaker directly. Is there an effect on taste or aroma?
3) These are fair questions, especially for a winemaker to ask. Right now, even finding out the grapes used, where they're from, and in what percentages can be a Herculean task. Part of why I'd like the wine world to treat these more like real wine is that this would impel the makers to start giving these stats like tradiitional wine often does, we can all agree that it matters. These Premium wines offer more info than non-Premium, but it's still hard to spelunk the nitty gritty, even then. When I bought these wines, before I could see the labels, the info was often non-existent!
I find it a bit ironic that these wineries are able to disclose the ingredient list, but not the base product it's made from. Which would make me think, bulk wine.
Velcorin is not required to be disclosed, which is why I think it's used so often, especially in wines with RS/Additions and or ferments/hygiene that are sloppy.
The whole vacuum distillation, basically a form of pressure cooker at lower temps is fascinating to me. I'd love to try the base product with the alcohol in it to see what was lost or changed as a result of the process.
I know I'm being clinical about this who question/answer business, but I am genuinely curious. I taste all my wines before, during, after fermentation, different oak treatments, etc., so an understanding of what the "before" tastes like, to me would be just doing my job.
Thanks again Dave for going through the process of trying these. I'm likely to try them myself. I've got an open mind about it all, as I mentioned, I've had some beer with zero alc, in some cases they have more flavor than a Coors Light, less calories and no alc. I'd say that's fair.
I hear you. We actually did taste the Oceano Full-alc right next to the de-alc (see the very end of the tasting part.) They were different vintages - 2021 Full-Alc Chardonnay, and 2023 de-alc, but both from the same vineyard, so the same source grapes.
Regarding vacuum distillation, wait for Part 3 of this series, also dropping next week, a sort of Coda where someone recently did an experiment with wine and vacuum distillation that points toward an absolutely jaw-dropping future for the technology and the wine space.
Ah, and I jsut caught where we had one mention of "residual sugar" in the write up, oopsie. I'm so used to writing "residual" in front of "sugar" I must have written that on automatic.
Ugh, one aromatised red snuck into the red tasting, posting next week. We didn't realize it was until we looked closely at the label and tasted it, and it wound up being good to have it match up against 7 non-aromatized wines, but knowing what any of these wines are without really pouring (pun intended) over the nutrition label is such a pain in the ass.
I know you didn’t want to address the “is it wine” thing, and I’m on the same page there, but aromatised ones should really be required to differentiate themselves meaningfully on the front label. It being tucked away in the ingredients list is not good enough.
Agreed! Though nothing quite stops a lot of traditional wine from hiding the same, outside of what we Americans, in the wake of Trump 2.0, now call "norms", things that are frowned upon but nothing actually stops anyone from doing it. :P And De-alc wine especially is still a bit of a new wild west, it was extremely difficult to dig up basic info on grapes used, from where, what techniques were used, etc. The ingredients list was just about the only transparent thing regarding most of them.
Thanks for doing this tasting. I've only had Zero alc beer and I don't have a problem with it.
1. Did all the wines have full ingredient labels except the Oceano? Because that seems like a marketing angle to me.
2. Besides the sparkling wines, were the still wines effervescent in any way which could have a positive effect on the palate? I saw the Oddbird listed CO2 on the label. However...
2A. Because there is a high residual sugar content, those wines could be subject to re-fermentation in the bottle (bubbles), so nearly guaranteed they are sterile filtering and maybe then plain flat out hitting it with Velcorin. Read up on Velcorin.
3. I'd like to know what the SO2 load was on these wines, harvest brix and the whole process when it had alcohol in it. What's the base product?
Looking forward to the reds.
Thanks, David!
1) Oceano does have ingredients, it's at the veeeeery bottom of the left side of the pic. It states in full: "Dealcoholized Chardonnay Wine, Invert Cane Sugar, Potassium Corbonate, Yeast Protein, Contains Sulfites."
2) They were not. Not even trace amounts of noticeable fizz to spruce up the texture. Not that we often thought any was needed.
2A) Technically I don't think any of the sugar was *residual* sugar, it was always *added* sugar. (Does that make a difference?) So fermentation completed, then the de-alc process, then sugar added after the fact. Sterile filtering is indeed likely - given that these wines go through vacuum distillation, I doubt there's much hand-wringing over trying to make these wines seem minimal interventon. And interesting about Velcorin! Doesn't seem to be required to add that to nutrition labels, so likely, but impossible to know without questioning the winemaker directly. Is there an effect on taste or aroma?
3) These are fair questions, especially for a winemaker to ask. Right now, even finding out the grapes used, where they're from, and in what percentages can be a Herculean task. Part of why I'd like the wine world to treat these more like real wine is that this would impel the makers to start giving these stats like tradiitional wine often does, we can all agree that it matters. These Premium wines offer more info than non-Premium, but it's still hard to spelunk the nitty gritty, even then. When I bought these wines, before I could see the labels, the info was often non-existent!
I find it a bit ironic that these wineries are able to disclose the ingredient list, but not the base product it's made from. Which would make me think, bulk wine.
Velcorin is not required to be disclosed, which is why I think it's used so often, especially in wines with RS/Additions and or ferments/hygiene that are sloppy.
The whole vacuum distillation, basically a form of pressure cooker at lower temps is fascinating to me. I'd love to try the base product with the alcohol in it to see what was lost or changed as a result of the process.
I know I'm being clinical about this who question/answer business, but I am genuinely curious. I taste all my wines before, during, after fermentation, different oak treatments, etc., so an understanding of what the "before" tastes like, to me would be just doing my job.
Thanks again Dave for going through the process of trying these. I'm likely to try them myself. I've got an open mind about it all, as I mentioned, I've had some beer with zero alc, in some cases they have more flavor than a Coors Light, less calories and no alc. I'd say that's fair.
I hear you. We actually did taste the Oceano Full-alc right next to the de-alc (see the very end of the tasting part.) They were different vintages - 2021 Full-Alc Chardonnay, and 2023 de-alc, but both from the same vineyard, so the same source grapes.
Regarding vacuum distillation, wait for Part 3 of this series, also dropping next week, a sort of Coda where someone recently did an experiment with wine and vacuum distillation that points toward an absolutely jaw-dropping future for the technology and the wine space.
Look forward to it.
Ah, and I jsut caught where we had one mention of "residual sugar" in the write up, oopsie. I'm so used to writing "residual" in front of "sugar" I must have written that on automatic.
Thanks for the shout out haha! Glad to see you’ve avoided the inclusion of aromatised wines.
Ugh, one aromatised red snuck into the red tasting, posting next week. We didn't realize it was until we looked closely at the label and tasted it, and it wound up being good to have it match up against 7 non-aromatized wines, but knowing what any of these wines are without really pouring (pun intended) over the nutrition label is such a pain in the ass.
I know you didn’t want to address the “is it wine” thing, and I’m on the same page there, but aromatised ones should really be required to differentiate themselves meaningfully on the front label. It being tucked away in the ingredients list is not good enough.
Agreed! Though nothing quite stops a lot of traditional wine from hiding the same, outside of what we Americans, in the wake of Trump 2.0, now call "norms", things that are frowned upon but nothing actually stops anyone from doing it. :P And De-alc wine especially is still a bit of a new wild west, it was extremely difficult to dig up basic info on grapes used, from where, what techniques were used, etc. The ingredients list was just about the only transparent thing regarding most of them.
Aromatised mega purple anyone? 🤢
I mean…it would probably actually taste good. That’s kind of the secret of aromatizsation. But people should understand WHY it tastes so good.